What if the very challenges that shaped your past became the fuel for your success? Neri Karra Sillaman’s journey from child refugee to globally recognized entrepreneur and thought leader is a testament to the power of resilience, cultural innovation, and an unstoppable immigrant mindset. Named to the Thinkers50 Radar List for 2024 and a leading voice in strategy and leadership, Neri shares how growing up in communist Bulgaria, learning English against all odds, and navigating life as a refugee shaped her perspective—and ultimately her business empire. In this episode, we explore the defining moments that ignited her journey, the mindset shifts that drive immigrant entrepreneurs to ask the right questions, and the lessons we can all learn about reframing rejection, embracing uncertainty, and building a legacy. Get ready to be inspired by a story of grit, ambition, and the power of possibility!

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Leading Through Kindness And Resilience: An Immigrant's Journey With Neri Karra Sillaman

It is my honor to introduce you to my guest, Neri Karra Sillaman. Neri is an advisor, speaker, and author. She was named to the Thinkers50 Radar List for 2024, placing her among the top 30 emerging management thinkers worldwide. She's an Entrepreneurship Expert at the University of Oxford and an Adjunct Professor at ESCP Paris.

Neri is also the Founder of Neri Karra, a global luxury leather goods brand with over 25 years of partnerships with leading Italian labels. A former child refugee, Neri’s journey fuels her passion for resilience, cultural innovation, and ethical business practices. Her thought leadership has appeared in Harvard Business Review, Fortune, Forbes, and Fast Company, sharing insights on strategy, entrepreneurship, and leadership.

She's also been quoted in publications such as the Financial Times, CNBC, Newsweek, Vogue Business, Bloomberg, Business of Fashion, and WWD. Neri lives in Paris with her husband and their six-year-old son. When not assisting with her son's experiments, she enjoys reading, cooking, and occasionally gardening. It’s wonderful to welcome you to the show.

Thank you. What an introduction.

There are so many things about what you do and where you're coming from. It’s exciting and also very interesting. I know we're going to get into a lot of this. I also need to know what sort of experiments your son's up to.

He gets obsessed with things. One of them is experiments. He loves science, so I have to be his assistant. It's not easy. It's much easier to write an article than to be an assistant.

That's awesome. We're going to have to see some posts about that, for sure. It is wonderful to have you. I'm so excited because you know, we got a chance to meet each other in person a few years ago at Thinkers50. I'm looking forward to seeing you again this 2025, hopefully.

The most challenging circumstances in life will help you see what really matters and make you appreciate everything a lot more.

I bought my ticket. I can't wait.

Growing Up In Communist Bulgaria And Learning English

We're going to do a journey through your past and then bring you to the present and share what you're up to. We're going to do it through what's called flashpoints. These are the points in your journey that have ignited your gifts into the world. Share what you're called to share, but also, we'll pause along the way and see what kind of themes are showing up. Are you ready?

I think so. I feel pressure, but also, it feels very good, like I'm talking to my therapist.

 I'm here. I'm a therapist of sorts, but not a licensed one.

When you were asking me the question, the first one goes back to childhood. It's a very defining moment in my life because I grew up in communist Bulgaria where we didn't have any brands. We didn't have fashion. We didn't have color in some ways. Once in a while, we would also get these American or English movies that are subtitled. I would watch them, and I was intrigued by that world. Through that iron curtain, sometimes you would catch glimpses of another world. I wanted to be part of that world even though I was a child.

I had learned to read, so I would've been 6 or 7, which is my son's age. One day, I read an advertisement in the city center that said English Classes. The second I read it, I bumped into an electric post. I turned to my mom and said, “I want to learn English.” To give you context, in my family, nobody has been to university. My dad has the highest degree, and that's a high school diploma. Nobody speaks English. For me to insist on learning English, and I wouldn't let it go, I would ask day and night, “I want to learn English.”

It was impossible because I was a Turkish ethnic minority. For those classes, you need to have connections. Not everyone can be allowed. My father eventually found a place, which is the art center in our tiny city. It was impossible, but my father made it possible through connections. I did eventually start learning English. I was learning English and making a decision as young as I was at that age.

We immigrated to Turkey, and I became a refugee. We were a refugee family. I talk quite often about this because that's another defining moment. When we are standing at that border, I have two realizations. One of them is that my childhood ended. The second one is, “In order for me to have a good life, get out of the refugee camp, and build a better life for myself and even my family, I need to get a good education.” That's a very clear decision. I remember deciding and wanting to learn English to say, “I have to get a good education.” Those are the two moments.

It was thanks to English that I was able to study well and advance at school. Even though we immigrated to Turkey and we were technically a Turkish ethnic minority, when we immigrated, we didn't feel like we belonged in Turkey. Yet, you also don't belong in Bulgaria. It's a very funny mix of identity. It was this language, English, that helped me. You fall off the boat and you are hanging on this rope. That rope for me is the English language.

I want to take a moment to reflect on what you shared because there are so many things about what you're tapping into here, which are so powerful. First of all, a lot of people take for granted the very things that you were seeking. For those who are born in the US or born in places where everything's mapped out already where we have command of language and the ability to learn languages, that is something that we shouldn't be taking for granted. That is something that you've come to appreciate in this journey. Would you agree?

Absolutely. Being an immigrant, being a refugee, or being born to circumstances because you don't have to be an immigrant or refugee, life challenging you makes you appreciate the little things and things that we take for granted. I was out in our garden in full gratitude for the sunshine and the garden. I count myself very privileged because who gets to sit in a garden? This is a little thing, but it's a very big thing. No money in the world can buy that. Challenging circumstances in life sometimes make you see what matters in life and make you appreciate everything a lot more.

I couldn't agree more. I know we're going to get into your book, Pioneers. I can't wait to share more about that with the audience, but before we get too far along there, I love what you're exploring here. This sense of being liminal in the middle space between not belonging to one country, not feeling like you belong in a new place, and trying to figure out your identity in this process is hard but also something that allows us to play in that mess and say, “What do I want to make of all this? How do I make a movement in the right direction?” Maybe it's thinking, “I have one thing I want to start with, learning English, and then I’ll go from there.”

It’s the first of the principles. I call it cross-cultural bridging. It's a point of power. Especially when you are young and when you are a teenager, you already struggle being a teenager, but then imagine not feeling like you belong anywhere. In my PhD, I started to explore international entrepreneurship, how companies are built from absolute zero to a level of unimaginable impact and success. It was one theme that was emerging even at that time. It's not a new theme, cross-cultural bridging.

Immigrant entrepreneurs, because they tend to bring two different identities to different cultures, but also a very different way of looking at a problem, this gives them a bit of power in some sense and a bit of an advantage as an entrepreneur. They don't solve the problem or even ask different questions compared to other entrepreneurs. For example, do you remember Noubar Afeyan, the founder of Moderna?

Yes.

He's from Boston, too, from MIT. He started his other company, Pioneer Ventures. He says, “The most important thing that we do is we ask the right questions. That question is, “What if?” This comes from the immigrant background because you are looking at different options. You are looking at a problem from a different way. You come up with questions that are not necessarily obvious.

First of all, he's an inspiration. I’ve had the chance to meet him along my journey in this local area. There's something about that mentality that he brings to the work, that immigrant mindset, that is powerful because nothing is guaranteed. Nothing is given. It's having a powerful commitment to creating that push to create something in the world and asking the right questions that makes a big difference in how we look at the world.

Another thing you said, nothing is guaranteed, is quite interesting as well, because in my research and the immigrant entrepreneurship area, they don't take things for granted, but they also don't seem to expect things to be given to them. Speaking of nothing is guaranteed, when they hear the word no, they don't process it the same way. They don't see it as rejection. I talk a lot about reframing rejection and reframing failure in the book. They look at it from a very different perspective.

An Immigrant In The University Of Miami

I can't wait to read your book. I have it on pre-order, so it's coming its way. There's an element of these are the things we need most and an appreciation of these mindset shifts that you're tapping into that allow us to see the power that we can create by our own will to move forward. There are so many things we're going to tap into, but before we do, I do want to get back into hearing more of the journey. What's the next flashpoint you want to share that got you to where you're doing the work you're doing?

The next flashpoint is at the University of Miami. I did end up going to the University of Miami at the age of eighteen. Once again, you become an immigrant, looking at my classmates all around me who felt very comfortable in their own skin, even in how they spoke to professors. I felt like a fish out of water at the time. I was focused on my studies because, for me, that’s it. That’s the one chance.

I looked at it as one chance I have in this life. I needed to make it the best. I needed to study well. I needed to get the best grades. I needed to do this correctly. Yet, you still have this chip on your shoulder where you feel like you are an immigrant, you are not good enough, and you don't belong here. I certainly felt that. At the age of eighteen, you already, in some sense, have that feeling anyway, but in my case, it was much more amplified.

We had a computer class. It was the first time ever that I saw a computer. We have to learn how to work with this computer. Our professor was a very nice elderly professor who was telling us all about Seinfeld and how Seinfeld was influenced or inspired by his friend. I had no idea what he was even talking about. This is all foreign to me. He then started to tell us about the computer, how it works, the keyboard, and the chip. He said, “It's Intel. It's what powers the computer.”

The antidote to loneliness is finding love in the right person.

He said, “The founder is a refugee.” My book starts with Andrew Grove. I am mesmerized at that point. It was such a defining moment in my life because I realized being a refugee is not such a bad thing. Since I was a business student learning about the history of Procter & Gamble and all those other big companies that were all started by immigrants and refugees, it made me think, “Maybe I'm okay. Being an immigrant is not such a bad thing. If they have done it, maybe I can do it, too.” That's another defining moment in my life. It gave me confidence.

Also, where I am makes me realize how important it is to have role models and representation, and to know that someone like you has also done it. Someone who is a refugee who came to the US with no money, without knowing anyone, and barely speaking English was able to put himself through school and become one of the leading CEOs of our generation in some ways. The way he gives back and continues. He left an incredible legacy. That's the whole point of my book that I'm also making. It's not about creating a business that's going to outlast you or that's going to be a 100-year-old business. It's about the impact that you make and the difference that you make.

I am thinking about the future Neri that is going to be reading this book and saying to herself, “I relate to this idea. I relate to this experience. I needed some role models who could give me something to hope for.” It is a powerful move. One of the things that I was thinking about in terms of where I wanted to take you and would love to hear your thoughts is around this idea of how you create that sense of moving forward and creating a path to becoming the person you are, but at the same time, not burning yourself out with all the pressure that you start to feel like, “I have to do well at school. I have to do well at this.” There are many things to accomplish that can be overwhelming.

You are right. I'm not going to say it was all peaches and roses. Not at all. Even at the University of Miami after my first semester, I didn't have any friends. Education wasn't the difficult part. It was more the fitting in and the pressure that I put on myself. After the first semester, I remember thinking, “Maybe I should go back to Turkey and transfer to a Turkish university.”

I went back for the summer vacation and was determined to come back and study because I wanted a better life for myself. This is what drives me. I am a very driven person. I’m ambitious. The words ambition, determined, or hardworking have some negative connotations. However, without it, I wouldn't be where I am.

I've had challenges, but also in the end, it brings me to wholeness. That’s the whole reason for this journey, as you are calling it. It's everything that you are doing. At least in my case, I've been asking myself the questions, “Why do I want to publish at HBR? Why do I want my book to be a success?” The answer is ultimately to lead me to wholeness. The relationship is always with ourselves.

I had challenging moments where I felt very lonely, and I questioned many things. The antidote has been love. It was finding love and finding the right person with whom you share your life and who brings perspective. That's important. A person like me tends to be so driven that someone like my husband can bring me down and bring perspective to almost everything and say, “Maybe look at it from this to have this view.” That's very helpful. I feel blessed.

Hearing you describe this, when we think about love, it's always this idea of romantic relationships. What I see in you and from what you're sharing is your love and your passion to drive forward is driven by this sense of like, “I know this is leading me to the right place. The people around me are what I'm striving to support and create a path to connecting with.” Love is a great motivator. It can get you through so many things.

Building A Business Through Love And Value

Love is very important. It's not love in this egoic sense or narcissistic sense. That's something I had to discover later in life. It’s like being in a therapist's office because the next defining moment is how I get to find this big love, which is big love within myself, most importantly, but then as a bonus, becomes another person.

I was 35. We have been building the business. As a daughter of immigrants and as an immigrant myself,  you also have this mindset of obligation. You have to be not just a good son or daughter, but you have to take care of your family. We are all in this together. When you go through something so challenging, you help each other.

Even though I've done my PhD and I went back to Cambridge to do my PhD, my thesis was also on my own company, the company that we have been building with my family. There was the expectation that as soon as I graduate, the degree or the PhD I've gotten is not going to matter. I have to go back and build a business with them. Once again, I was very much torn between two different worlds, academia and entrepreneurship, following what I thought I wanted to do versus obligation or responsibility. Obligation, not so much, but responsibility. I have felt that war or push and pull within me for quite a long time.

At age 35, I was back living in Istanbul. This is such a difficult thing for me to do. Someone who comes from a very traditional immigrant background family may relate to this. I sat there with my parents and told them, “I am going to go back to London. I would like to take a step back from the family business. I want to follow what is right for me.” If you leave me on a desert island and I have to make a living out there by myself, I will be a teacher. I thought, “I'm going to go back to London, try to find a job, and restart my academic career.”

Once you are out and you are not publishing for several years, it can be nearly impossible to get back. This was not easy for my parents, but I was going. I was leaving. When I was seven years old, I made the decision. When I was eleven years old, I made the decision. Once again, at age 35 this time, I was thinking, “I have to do this.” That's a huge moment for me on a personal level. It wasn't about achievement this time. It was about the love and respect for myself and discovering my voice.

This was a powerful moment because after that, I did get a job offer here at the university and became an associate professor. This is what happens. I was also thinking, “I am not going to chase this soulmate relationship or love.” I wanted to have my own family, be happy, and find love but it was not happening. It was illusory.

I was not fed up or frustrated, but there was more of a realization of, “I need to stop looking and chasing. All I have been wanting is within me.” I started to give that love to myself. I know it may sound so cheesy. Maybe I never ever talked about this with anyone unless we are very close friends, but here you go. After that, I met my husband. It's a defining moment. It's love at the end that has driven my decisions.

I want to react to that for a moment to say you've been making tough choices since you were a kid, and you've been making these tough choices that pull you between different worlds. There's a quote that says, “Do you want an easy life or do you want a purposeful life?” You've leaned into this idea of, “I could stay where I am and do the things I'm doing. I've achieved a lot already,” but there's something that's driving you forward. Those are the values that you care about and the purpose that you're driven by that pushed you and kept on moving you into taking the tough choice that led to not an easy life, but a life of meaning and purpose.

Thank you.

I love that you put love at the beginning of that, too. It's the passion, the love for yourself, and caring about yourself, but also making sure that you're thinking about what else you're going to be providing and the love you're going to be giving to the world through this process of creating a life of purpose and meaning.

It's so important. When you lead with that, the difference is enormous versus when you are in the space of ego. I've seen the difference in my own life. When I'm pushing and it can be ego-driven, the result is not always very satisfactory and rather not very long-lasting, in my opinion. When you are driven by different values and by love, as cheesy as it may sound, because I know this word is not something that we are used to in a business context, the difference is enormous.

I talk about business longevity. Not to bring it to the book, but when I was talking to the immigrant entrepreneurs who built these incredible businesses, I thought, “I'm starting the interview, so I am already thinking more or less. They will tell me answers I already know,” maybe a little bit like that. However, the answers I got were so surprising. This was one of them.

Her name is Reem Hassani. She's an Iraqi immigrant here in the US. She created with her brother a company called Numi Tea. It's the world's largest fair trade tea company. They are very much driven by values as well. Even when they are first starting the business, they are asking questions that nobody asks. They are calling up the FDA, and the guy at the FDA is telling them, “Why are you calling us? Make the tea. Nobody called us before about this.” They are doing everything in a very different way.

I'm talking to Reem, and she says, “I first looked within and found my passion and what drives me in life. It could have been any other company. I could have been a teacher, but it ended up being tea.” She was a teacher. I love that because it's how the principles and the values drove the business. Also, they weren't starting with the idea of making millions of dollars, becoming this business of longevity, or becoming a business of 20 to 30 years. They were doing what felt right for them and doing it based on their passion.

Passions, interests, and values are seldom discussed in the business world. Vision-mission statements are mostly talked about, but they are so dry.

In the business literature, you have to first look at what's out there. Find the need and fulfill it. You don't hear someone in the business school talking about passion, what drives you, what interests you, and what your values are. We will talk a little bit about mission and vision statements but they are so dry and so not relevant that I'm sometimes like, “Why do we even have them in Business 101? They need to be taught differently.”

What you're sharing with me is so powerful. I had this insight around this, which will resonate and I want to share with you. I wrote a poem called To Be of Love, which is instead of being of value to others, be of love to yourself and to others. Where that’s leading me down is this idea of also what you're sharing, which is this idea of when your business is an expression of love, it takes on a whole new form. It takes on a whole new way of creating impact in the world. Instead of trying to meet a need, it's an expression of who you are that comes out and is shared.

This reminds me of Chobani, Hamdi Ulukaya. He is such a fascinating example and such a fascinating person. He's an immigrant. He came to the US to study English. When he's building, he hears about the old Kraft Factory that's closing in this little town. The way he's describing how he first started the business is very much together with people in that town. They are not angry but they are resigned. He sees sadness in them because the livelihood of that town is the Kraft Factory, which is no longer in business. When you put love at the center of what you do, you create a business of longevity. You create a legacy. You create something of value. You create something that you can be proud of.

Writing A Book For Immigrant Entrepreneurs

There are so many things I want to dive into with you because there's more to your story that I think would be wonderful to dive into. I'd love to maybe turn gears. Let's talk about the impetus of bringing the book together. First of all, you've been doing a lot of writing along the way, but writing a book is a whole different story. Maybe share a little bit of the journey to the book, and then I'd love to have you share some insights around what people can expect when they buy this book.

I'll start with the first part of the question. It’s a very good question. I was driven to write the book for several reasons. It's my own background, it's what I do, and also, because I came across the incredible statistic where more than 50% of Fortune 500 companies are started by immigrants. 80% of billion-dollar startups have a founder or an executive who is an immigrant. Statistically, immigrant-founded businesses last longer. I wanted to understand what makes them different. We are talking about companies like Calendly, Duolingo, Chobani, Moderna, Dermalogica, WhatsApp, Google, and Pfizer. You name it. These are very powerful companies.

When I started my interviews, it was very surprising to me to discover that what was driving them wasn't profit only. That's how they are able to create companies that last. This was a surprising finding. Another one is that I identified eight different principles, but there is a common thread that connects all these principles. Without it, nothing can exist. That's kindness. I wrote an article about it for Fast Company.

As I was writing the book and coming to the end of it, I was thinking, “How am I going to conclude it? What will the conclusion be?” Reading through all the principles, I'm like, “Hold on a second. Kindness. Without it, nothing will exist.” When we think of the business of longevity or the business of impact, we immediately think you have to be ruthless in business and you have to focus on profit or growth. That's not what I heard when I was conducting my interviews and doing my research. That was an eye-opener.

The other one was before the election in the US, I ended up being in Washington. I was doing a podcast for Thinkers50 with Anne Morris. Before I go on the podcast, maybe I am in principle eight at the time when I’m still writing the book. I remember standing in my hotel room, going, “Oh my God.” I had the realization. For me, if I can summarize everything in this book, it would be, “It was never about you.” I said that to Anne Morris on the podcast. This is almost like this light bulb that came on and it was, “It has never been about you.”

Every single leader or every single business owner who created a business of impact puts this at the heart of what they do. They don't put themselves at the heart of the business. It's about the value they provide. It's about their employees. It's about their customers. It's not about them. To be able to do that will give you incredible power the second you take yourself out of the equation. What else can the readers take from the book? I didn't want to write a boring business book.

There are enough of those out there.

I wanted to write a page turner so that when they are reading, they can also be on a journey with Hamdi Ulukaya and how he arrived in the US. You are there with Isaac Larian as he's traveling to the US, as he's unable to find a job, and as he's going from gas station to gas station hoping to get a job. You are there with Andrew Grove as he escapes Hungary, ends up in Austria, and then comes to the US on a boat as a refugee.

I wanted to bring the reader into their world to show them how these entrepreneurs started from absolute zero. They didn't start with incredible resources. They didn't start with a gold visa. Let me plug that in. They didn't have someone famous whom they knew. I wanted the reader to be immersed in that world as well. Hopefully, it's a page-turner.

I'm sure. Everything you've shared so far makes me want to immerse myself in this book. Some of the things that you shared resonate with me. My dad was an immigrant from Italy with nothing in his pocket when he came to this country. I think about the business that he built. I may get a little emotional about this. He passed away a few years ago. He built a very successful business based on this idea of kindness, relationships, how important it is, and how everything you do is being of service to helping others.

In my own journey, I had the opportunity to work for some amazing companies in biotech. One particular story that always comes to mind is Henri Termeet. He passed away as well. He was the CEO of Genzyme, a company I worked for. I remember that he always said, “It's not about us. It's about the patients. The patients are waiting.” That one thing that he shared made me want to work even harder to help that vision come to life.

That's so powerful. That's so amazing.

There’s this real connection to the work you’re doing. I'm so grateful that you've continued on this path and you're allowing other people to get an inside view as to how these individuals create this path to amazingness through kindness.

Thank you. You are doing incredible work as well. I love following you on LinkedIn and your articles. You have exceptional episodes.

It is only possible with exceptional guests like yourself.

Thank you. I told you before we started to record that I'm so honored. You had guests who are my role models. I look up to them. When you invited me, I was like, “Yes.” I am so humbled by this.

I'm so grateful for that. Thank you. I'll take that compliment. I'll also say that you belong here and you belong in this space with all the amazing people. The story has not ended yet. We're continuing to see where things go for you.

Hopefully.

Neri’s Recommended Books

We're going to run out of time because there are so many things we often talk about here. I wish I had three hours to spend with you. I do want to shift gears into our last question. Speaking of stories and inspiration, what are some books that have had an impact on you, and why?

They are not business books. One of them is Angela's Ashes. I read it when I was at the University of Miami. For me, very much similar to Andrew Grove's story, it made an incredible impact because it made me realize the power of immigrants. With the way that he wrote the book, it's a page turner but also such an emotional book. I've read every single book. I can't remember the name of the author who is so famous.

I can't either, so it's all good.

Without kindness, nothing will exist.

That’s Angela’s Ashes. The second one is Khaled Hosseini’s book, The Kite Runner. It is very much from my part of the world. It’s a personal story. He's also an immigrant. I read it so many times. The first time I read it, I cried so much that I had to stop reading it for a while. It's an exceptional book. It has incredible storytelling in both of them. One day, I don't know if it may be possible, but I would love to be able to write a memoir.

That's beautiful. You said it here first. We're going to hold you to that because we'd love to see that. There's something about what you're tapping into. Even when you were a kid, seeing the things that are happening in Hollywood and the things that inspired you to want to learn English, there's an element of fiction.

Even though people sometimes discount the value that it can bring to informing us and inspiring us, it is also a powerful way for us to feel a connection to something big in the world and to see how these stories become an inspiration for us to be able to lean into and say, “I want that. I want to experience that. I want to be that embodiment.”

I know we are coming to the end, but very quickly, what you said is so spot on. When I was learning English, we had the double-decker bus. We had Cambridge. We had Oxford. I was watching American movies. I was completely creating a different world in my mind. I was on top of those double-decker buses in Piccadilly Circus. I wasn't living in Istanbul. In my mind, I was living in a different world, and it came true. It's important and powerful.

Episode Wrap-up And Closing Words

This has been such a wonderful conversation. I can't thank you enough for accepting my invitation and joining us. You're sharing so many wonderful things that people can relate to and be inspired to start thinking about for themselves. Thank you for coming on the show.

My pleasure. It's such an honor. Thank you.

Before I let you go, everyone should go pick up a copy of your book, Pioneers, which is going to be wonderful for everyone to experience. Where's the best place for people to reach out to you if they want to learn more about your work?

I am active on LinkedIn so they can find me @Neri-Karra-Sillaman. @Prof.Neri is my Instagram handle. It was too long to put Neri Karra Sillaman, so @Prof.Neri. I'm active on Instagram as well.

Thank you for that. Thanks to the readers for coming on this journey. I know you're leaving feeling inspired. I hope you understand the message here that is at the core of this. It's not about us. It's about our expression of love into the world. That should be the driver of how we want to move into the different areas where we spend our time.

Thank you.

You're welcome. That's a wrap.

Important Links

• Neri Karra
• Pioneers
• Angela's Ashes
• The Kite Runner
• Neri Karra Sillaman on Instagram
• Neri Karra Sillaman on LinkedIn

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