Lifelong Learning & Curiosity: Embracing Tiny Experiments For Big Change With Anne-Laure Le Cunff

What if success isn’t a straight path, but an experiment? In this episode, award-winning neuroscientist and entrepreneur Anne-Laure Le Cunff shares her unconventional journey from a high-profile career at Google to the unpredictable world of curiosity-driven learning. She reveals how embracing uncertainty, following her intellectual passions, and redefining success led her to found Ness Labs and write her transformative book, Tiny Experiments. Get ready to explore the power of lifelong learning, adaptability, and the small shifts that can spark major breakthroughs in your life.

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Lifelong Learning & Curiosity: Embracing Tiny Experiments For Big Change With Anne-Laure Le Cunff

It is my honor to introduce you to my guest, Anne-Laure Le Cunff. Anne-Laure is an award-winning Neuroscientist and Entrepreneur. She's the Founder of Ness Labs, where her weekly newsletter is read by more than 100,000 curious minds, myself included. Her research at King's College London focuses on the psychology and neuroscience of lifelong learning, curiosity, and adaptability.

Her latest book,Tiny Experiments: How to Live Freely in a Goal-Obsessed World, is a transformative guide for living a more experimental life, turning uncertainty into curiosity, and carving a path of self-discovery. Previously, she worked at Google as an executive on digital health projects. Her work has been featured in Rolling Stone, Forbes, Financial Times, and Wired. She's joining me from Austin, where she's been enjoying the amazing food, some wonderful tacos, and the art scene. It's wonderful to have you, and I'm so thrilled to welcome you to the show, Anne-Laure.

Thank you so much for having me, Tony.

I'm looking forward to diving in. I've been following your work and am just intrigued by all your insights. I'm excited to dive into your book, too, which I have not cracked open yet, but I am looking forward to reading soon. I would love just to explore your story and get into your journey. That's what we're going to do. We're going to start the fire and have you share some of your flashpoint moments. What do you think?

I'm excited. Let's do it.

To give you a little bit of insight into what we talk about when we say flashpoints, flashpoints are those moments in your journey that have ignited your gifts into the world. When I turn it over to you, share what you're called to share, and we'll stop along the way and see what themes are showing up. Let's get this party started. Anne-Laure, share.

Do you want me to share one moment that comes up that I feel is a turning point?

As many as you'd like. Maybe start with the one that you feel is most calling you at this moment.

Leaving Google: A Major Turning Point

I think a turning point for me was when I decided to leave my job at Google several years ago. I think about my life in terms of two different chapters. There was the before and after this decision. Before that decision, I had followed a pretty linear path, pretty safe. I had a clear vision, a clear plan as to how to be successful in life and at work. I was working pretty hard to get promoted and to work on the most interesting projects.

Life was exciting to a point, but I also felt a little bit bored out in the sense that I felt like I already knew how the movie would end. It’s like when a friend has spoiled a movie for you and you need to sit through the entire thing. That's how I felt at the time. This was a turning point, a flashpoint moment when I decided to leave. Since then, my life has been a lot more fluid, experimental, and based on curiosity and questions rather than trying to have this fixed plan and vision as to what success should look like.

I love that you share this. I often think about values. One of my values is adventure. I'm imagining that's one of your values, too. You want to have an adventure. Life should be an adventure. Sometimes, we go through these patterns, and it's like rinse, wash, repeat, keep on going. There's got to be more to life than this. That's what it sounds like you were feeling at that moment when you experienced this. Especially with Google, it's hard for people to say, “I'm at Google, and I'm feeling that.”

It's interesting that you mention this moment of realization that there should be more to life because that's basically what happened. I had a family member ask me while I was visiting for Christmas, “How's life?” I paused for the first time, asking myself, “How's life?” That's when I started pulling this thread and going a little deeper, realizing that although, on the surface, everything was great, including a great job and a great salary, I was living in San Francisco at the time. Everything was supposed to feel good, but it did feel a little bit empty.

It is. It's crazy how everything on the surface can look so glamorous and wonderful. I think there are so many people, I've been through this moment myself, but there's this element of, deep down, we have these things that are yearning to get out, and we need to allow ourselves the space and maybe the permission to just say, “I got to explore this because if not, I'm going to have regret, or I'm going to have this feeling of what if?” That's where we're going to go next. What is the thing that you decided to do once you decided to take that leap?

Starting A Startup And Facing Failure

What's interesting is that, at the time, I thought I was going to let go of this linear definition of success and go explore, except that I jumped straight into the next linear narrative that you're supposed to follow when you leave a tech company, I started a startup. It’s because that was what everybody around me was doing in Silicon Valley. You would work for a few years for one of the big tech giants, save a bit of money, grow your network, and then raise funds so you could start the next big thing and save the world. That was the narrative that you were supposed to follow.

It took me a few more years to realize that that's what I was doing again, following this, as you said, glamorous path, which ultimately was not a path that I had chosen consciously but a path that I had copy-pasted from the default definitions of success that I was seeing around me. It was only when my startup failed that I finally took the time to sit down and truly ask myself, not just “How’s life?” because that was pretty clear at that point, that it didn’t feel so great, but “What could life look like?” In particular, “What could life look like if I just followed my curiosity?”

It was only when my startup failed that I finally took the time to sit down and truly ask myself—not just, "How’s life?" but rather, "What could life look like?"

Pursuing Neuroscience & Curiosity-Driven Learning

If I forgot about default definitions of success, if I forgot about my fear of judgment, my perfectionism, the desire to have an impressive career, what if I let go of all of that and just did what felt interesting? For me, I've always been curious about how the brain works, why we think the way we think and feel the way we feel. In my late twenties, I decided to go back to university and study neuroscience.

You have me wanting to go back and rewind a little bit and learn about what you were doing before you got into Google. Tell me a little bit about the journey before Google. Where did you grow up, and what were you studying that got you into the world of Google? A quick rewind.

I grew up in Paris. My mom is Algerian, and my dad is French. I grew up in a multicultural family. We had lots of kids running around, and I loved reading. I just loved grabbing a book and retreating to my bedroom. I was a very curious kid. I loved learning, and I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do. If you asked me as a kid, two of the recurring careers that I thought were interesting were either becoming a writer or a paleontologist.

I loved dinosaurs. Unfortunately, my parents, or fortunately, I don't know, because I wouldn't be where I am now, didn't give me a lot of choice when it came to my studies. Coming from an immigrant background, I can understand that they optimized for job safety, making sure that I would always have a roof over my head and food on the table.

I studied business and science, which were the two topics they felt would lead to the best career prospects. I did that. After I graduated from university, or during university, I did a couple of internships at Google and ended up being hired straight out of university. I didn't have to try other jobs after graduating.

I appreciate you taking that little rewind because I was just curious about what got you on that path. I think there is a sense that you get on this treadmill of sorts, and it starts to go in a good direction. Here, you are thinking about neuroscience. It's a great leap, but also not that big of a leap, considering the fact that you had a science element inside of you. You understood science, and you also had this desire to dig deeper. Curiosity is a gateway to getting there. It is a big challenge to go back into schooling, especially once you've been in the working world for a period of time. Tell me what happened when you started getting into neuroscience.

You're right that there was a big leap. Even though I did study a bit of science at school before I started working at Google, it was definitely not the same level of science I had to tackle in neuroscience graduate school. By that point, I had been out of school for almost a decade. I had forgotten what it felt like to just listen to lectures, take notes, and have to learn things by heart for exams.

Building A Career Around Learning And Exploration

I was very lucky that quite early in my studies, we were introduced to a concept that resonated with me, a psychological phenomenon called the generation effect. It shows that by creating your own version of something you're studying, you will both understand it and remember it better. That's why teachers tell you, "Don't just copy-paste whatever I'm saying. Rephrase it in your own words." It helps create stronger connections in your brain and supports long-term memory.

I thought that was pretty neat because the generation effect isn't just about taking notes and phrasing things in your own words. It can be about creating any kind of artifact around what you're studying. You could create YouTube videos about where you're studying, run a podcast around things that you're curious about, it doesn't matter. 

I decided that I was going to make use of this generation effect in my studies, and I was going to write about what I learned every week in my own words. To stay accountable, I'm going to share it with the world. I'm going to start a newsletter. That's how I started the Ness Labs newsletter at the beginning of my neuroscience studies. To my surprise, because that was more of a learning device for me, it grew pretty quickly. It has more than 100,000 people reading it, which is absolutely incredible and has been an amazing part of this journey, both studying neuroscience in university and being able to discuss these topics with so many people around the world.

It's so cool, first of all, because it seems like this is serving me. It's a win for you, meaning you're able to reinforce your learning but also serve so many in a way that allows them to go on the journey with you. I think that's so wonderful. Over time, from my own experience of doing writing as well, you just get so much better, and it starts to reinforce. When I look at the first one I wrote, maybe it wasn't so great, but now, you look at, I don't know how many you've done now, but a lot, you start to see the improvement over time. Not only are you learning, but your style of writing is also getting better. Am I right?

It's the best feeling, which may sound paradoxical, but the little cringe you get when you reread an old piece from a few years ago. Initially, you cringe a little, but then you realize that's because you've progressed so much. You've grown so much. That's a good feeling, a nice moment of realization when you see that gap, that growth.

One of the things I always think about is this concept of gap versus gain. It's not a gap. It's a gain. It's like thinking back and appreciating, look how far we've come. I think that's a wonderful thing to appreciate and not cringe per se, but instead say, "Look at this growth that has happened for me." It's a wonderful thing. Very cool. I have to ask, where did Ness Labs come from? What is the name, the origin?

Ness is the suffix that we use to describe the state of being something, consciousness, the state of being conscious, mindfulness, the state of being mindful, awareness. That's why we use it for all of these words. That's the Ness part. Labs is because I wanted to create a laboratory for myself, a sandbox to explore ideas, make mistakes, learn in public, and connect with others. That's what Ness Labs is all about, a little laboratory to explore states of being

That's wonderful. I love that. Very cool. You started to do this, and now, how many years have you been doing this?

Since 2019.

What happened next, and what's the next evolution of where you progress from here? Tell me what you got into.

I don't know, which is great. This is what I love about the life that I have designed for myself, that I'm not clinging to plans or this illusion of certainty, pretending that I know where I'm going. After the newsletter started growing quite a bit, I had publishers reaching out. They asked if I wanted to write a book. I wrote the book, and now it's out, and I'm very excited for people to read it and apply those principles. I'm also still conducting academic research at the university.

This year is going to be a year for me of pausing and excelling, asking myself what I want to do now. I've used that curiosity muscle enough. I feel a lot more confident that I'm not necessarily going to jump into the most obvious next step or the most impressive path but instead try and see where my curiosity might want to lead me.

The reason I asked is because I think it's so interesting how you build something, and then it starts to gain momentum. There's a sense of humbleness behind that, which is like, "Now what? What do I do?" It also becomes a sense of power that you get to wield, like the future is wide open. I can do so many things from here, and I'm allowing that to just be okay. I think that's a wonderful way to approach it, not letting it be too frustrating but instead making it joyous and allowing yourself to lean into whatever shows up.

One thing that is happening is this idea that you have a book that you are able to lean into and express yourself through. As I often say about books, it's an opportunity to open a dialogue with other people. You write a book, and it's not the end. It's the beginning. I'd love to have you share, A) the process of writing the book, and B) what the book is about. What are people going to get from it? You don't have to give all the nuggets of secrets away, but just a little taste.

It's interesting how you just mentioned learning to be comfortable in those in-between spaces where we're not quite sure what's next because that was the inspiration for the book. Many years ago, when I started working on it, obviously, it evolved a lot. When you start writing, the book takes on a life of its own. I was interested in liminal spaces, those in-between spaces, those transitions full of uncertainty. Exactly as you described, when we find ourselves in those liminal spaces, we try to get out of them as quickly as possible, cross to the other side, and get back to a state of certainty where we feel stable and safe.

There are so many opportunities. Those liminal spaces can be fertile ground for self-discovery, creativity, and exploring what life could look like if only we can bring ourselves to stay in them a little bit longer. To sit in the uncertainty. To embrace the state of unknowing. That was the seed of the idea for the book. Initially, the title of the book was Liminal Minds, but we ended up changing it. My publisher and I decided it sounded a little too deep-philosophy and might not be appealing to a lot of people, when in fact, the book is quite practical. It's all about how to make friends with uncertainty.

There are so many opportunities in those liminal spaces—they can be fertile ground for self-discovery, creativity, and exploring what life could look like for you - if only you can bring yourself to sit in the uncertainty and embrace the state of unknowing.

It's all about how to make friends with uncertainty. It's about embracing a more experimental mindset, becoming the scientist of your own life, and asking research questions. Every time you see something, either within yourself or outside yourself, that you don't understand, instead of responding with fear, you have this response of, "What's going on here? What can I learn from this? What kind of experiments could I run?" That is the big idea behind the book.

The Importance Of Giving Yourself Space Before Making Decisions

You reminded me of something that I've been leaning into a lot, which is this idea that we don't give ourselves enough space to borrow from Viktor Frankl between stimulus and response. I think one of the things that a lot of people struggle with is not allowing themselves the space to think before acting. We don't want to paralyze ourselves, but we should definitely be in a place where we're thinking, “Maybe there's something else that could happen here before I rush to start that next chapter or get into the next job."

What else is possible? What else could I get into? Experiments are a wonderful way to try new things out and not be too attached to what happens. Ultimately, we don't want to rush into anything, allowing ourselves to stay in the mess of the uncertainty, if you will, a little longer. I love that you say that. It's just a wonderful concept. It's delivered in your own style, which I think is going to make the book powerful for people to see it in your view of the world.

The Concept Of Tiny Experiments In Navigating Uncertainty

I like what you just said about being able to stay in there, not having to jump to and choose the next big thing, because that's why I called the book. Its final title is not Liminal Minds. It's Tiny Experiments. That's where I ended up feeling like it was the right title for this book. I also want to dismantle the idea that it's just about doing nothing and waiting until you have this sudden a-ha moment, that this is your calling, your purpose, and what you should be doing next. Instead, while staying in uncertainty, that liminal space where we're not quite sure what's next, we can try a lot of different things but without the big commitment. 

Without doing what I did when I left Google and said, "Next, I'm going to change the world with my startup." In reality, I could have probably stayed at Google a little bit longer and maybe experimented with some side projects to see if there was something that resonated more. I could have taken six months to just try different things, maybe do some consulting and freelancing, where you get to connect with other people and learn from them. Putting yourself in situations where you're going to grow, getting a little bit out of your comfort zone, and seeing what's interesting to you without necessarily saying, "That's the big plan. That's the purpose."

Put yourself in situations where you’ll grow, step out of your comfort zone, and explore what interests you—without necessarily deciding that it’s the big plan or ultimate purpose.

It's something that you're embodying. Don't take this the wrong way, but it's a sense of restlessness, that we need to have more people who are willing to be restless, but not in a way that is seen as, "I'm ambitious just to go get the next thing." Restlessness in the sense of asking, "Something's missing. How do I go explore and figure out what I can have that's not there?" If I stay here too long, I know that restlessness is going to go away, and I'll be regretting that. The reason why I mention that is because I have that too. Sometimes, I see it as impatience, and I need to sometimes check, is it impatience or is it restlessness in a good way.

That's very interesting. I've never used the term restlessness in a positive way, but it's an interesting reframe. I think it's very aligned with a lot of the work being done in psychology, trying to reconnect and learn from emotions that have been labeled as negative historically in our societies and seeing them as signals, sources of information. Again, instead of trying to repress them, if we listen to them, they can be very helpful in informing our decisions.

I think you're absolutely spot on. The sense of, it's telling you something. For some people, we respond. Some people, we just repress it and think, "I've been told through my life and by other people that this road I'm on is what I need to be on. Therefore, I should continue to suck it up and go forward." The reality is, that could be painful and not necessarily right for me. That could be a path to burnout in a bad way. Anyway, I digress. I want to get back on track. Is there another flashpoint that you want to share before we get too far along?

I would say on the personal side of things, when we decided with my partner that he would move to Singapore and I would stay in London because at the exact same moment, he was offered his dream job there and I was accepted into a PhD program at a good university in London, that was an interesting moment. Also, having to discuss our priorities and how we show up for each other and support each other.

We just moved back in together in London after three and a half years of very long distance. That was another flashpoint moment where I realized and accepted that I care a lot about my work, that this is a big source of joy for me in life, and that I wasn't, at the time, and I'm still not, willing to abandon this source of joy or sacrifice it for other areas of my life. I want to design a life where I can have space for that creative exploration that I get from my work, writing, and research. These are things that I love doing. Also, for everything else that matters to me. That was a big moment of clarity for us.

When you're faced with a big decision like that, it does force you into making some choices about what's important at this point. Does that mean it's forever? No. It just means that it's like, "This is what's needed." What a wonderful thing to share. I appreciate you sharing. This is a challenging moment, but it's also the thing that helps other people think about what they're going through. "Do I need to make a big choice?" I think a lot of us made big choices during the pandemic. "What's important? What do I need to lean into?"

Making Intentional Life Choices

That's the thing. Very often, we face those situations, not too often, fortunately, because they can be quite difficult, but we're forced to make those big decisions because of external circumstances. I think it's important to start thinking about what matters to you before you're faced with one of those situations. It's a way to feel a little bit more aligned with yourself. Again, even if the external world is very uncertain and things keep changing and you have no idea what's going to happen tomorrow, it does give you a sense of groundedness internally, this inner sense of calm that you are aligned with what matters to you.

We’re often forced to make big decisions due to external circumstances. It’s important to consider what truly matters to you before you’re faced with those situations.

I often think about it from the perspective of if we're like ships on the water, you want to be a ship that has a good sense of where you're headed, even though there are going to be a lot of things that knock you off course, you still have a sense of where you're headed. That comes from being grounded in what’s important, the values, the things that are generally steering you forward. Even though we get knocked off course and we might go in a slightly different direction from what we originally planned.

We should be intentional when we decide to change course, allowing ourselves to change course. It's a lot easier, again, to say, "I don't like that direction. I'm going to go in another one," if you knew which direction you were going in the first place.

It still comes back to having the strong base of where you're coming from. Wonderful. I want to lean into something that has been on a journey. You've been through a lot of different things, a lot of twists and turns. I want to ask, what have you learned about yourself in this journey that you haven't already shared? Maybe there are some insights around some qualities that you unearthed about yourself.

I've discovered that I'm pretty resilient, which is a quality, but that comes with another side of the same coin, which is that I can sometimes struggle to ask for help because I feel like I have to figure it out all on my own. I'm pretty happy with how I navigate most challenges. I tend to be able to deal with quite high levels of stress and be okay. I have developed good emotional tools and regulation tools. Again, sometimes I look back at certain periods of my life, especially when I'm on the other side of a pretty intense period at work, and I feel like I didn't have to do all of that on my own. I probably could have asked for a little bit more help.

I love that you shared that. There are so many people out there who are reading and who have been in that same boat or are in that same boat and are feeling that sense of, like, why did I allow myself to do that? It comes from a little bit of ego. We have this sense of, like, I don't want to be seen as weak, what have you. One of the things I've learned along the way is that the most successful leaders get good at asking for help in the right way. We don't go it alone. I think that's the beauty of having a good community around you. Anything else in terms of lessons you want to share that you've learned about yourself?

I like connecting with other people. Growing up, I thought that I was more of an introvert because my favorite pastime was just to grab a book and go into my bedroom and not talk to anybody. I think I'm still kind of an introvert, but I also get a lot of joy and energy from great conversations with others. I'm being a lot more intentional now in terms of how I spend my time. It can be tempting for me, it's the default, to spend my entire day reading, being on my computer, and then grabbing a book in the evening and maybe not talking to anyone during the day.

Technically, I'm not going to feel any sense of lack from doing this. I now try to schedule a conversation with someone at least once a day, ideally in person, if I can, just taking a walk together or grabbing coffee. If that's not possible, an online chat with a friend, calling someone, calling my mom or my sister, but making sure to have that human connection. Although I don't necessarily have the natural drive to do it, I have noticed and learned about myself that I feel a lot better after I've had that deep human interaction.

That's a wonderful insight. There's something about it. It's like we have to almost be the doctors of our own lives. We have to prescribe ourselves. We need 2 doses of connection, 1 dose of alone time, and maybe 1 dose of exercise. That's how we have to think about it. We have to be very intentional about it and also know that sometimes we're not going to get it right. We have to adjust, and that's fine. I think the idea is that we do need to be the ones who are responsible for setting the tone for what we want. Otherwise, it just happens. Having it happen is not necessarily going to be a great way for us to navigate through life.

It all goes back to paying attention, noticing, and listening to those signals without self-blame or self-judgment, treating them as useful information that you can use to decide what prescription you might need from your doctor or what you might want to change, tweak, or iterate on in your life and in your work.

Anne-Laure's Favorite Book

We’re coming close to the end, and I want to ask one of the questions I just love asking because it's always a doorway into people's lives. Now that I know you're a voracious reader, I'm excited about this. One or two, maybe three books that have had an impact on you, and why?

I always struggle with these questions because, as you said, I read quite a bit, and it's hard to pick. I would say How to Change Your Mind: What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence by Michael Pollan, which is a book about his journey in exploring and discovering the power of psychedelics. I read it before I had started working with psychedelics and didn't know much about them, but it opened a gateway for me that led, further down the line, to much better mental health for me, a lot more self-knowledge, and just having more tools to, again, connect with and regulate my emotions. That definitely had a big impact on my life as the very first book I read about psychedelics.

How We Learn: Why Brains Learn Better Than Any Machine . . . for Now by Stanislas Dehaene, who is another French neuroscientist, is a great little book. It's technically about all of the learning processes in the brain, but it's also about how we navigate and interface with the world and with reality in general and how that changes from childhood to adulthood. It helped me understand better how we, as humans, see the world differently, and it can also help you connect better with others through the lens of neuroscience. Loved this book.

The last one, I think, is like a 0.5. I'm adding 2.5 books because I only just started reading it. It's Tao Te Ching. Very new to this. A friend recommended it. I went to a bookstore here in Austin and found an old copy that is 50 years old, along with a commentary book from Alan Watts. I'm going through them, and that's why I'm saying 0.5, but I already feel like these books are going to change my worldview.

I have to say, this has been a wonderful conversation, and I'm just so grateful for what you've shared. It resonates not just with me, but it's going to resonate with so many people. I'm so glad that you were able to join us to share your story, your insights, and just your energy around what you do. Thank you for coming on the show.

Thank you so much for having me. This was great.

Wonderful, thank you. Before I let you go, I want to make sure people know where to find you. Obviously, we have to mention your newsletter again, because Ness Labs is just remarkable, and also the book and wherever else they can find you. What are the best resources we should offer up?

I think a good introduction to my work is my book Tiny Experiments which you can order from TinyExperiments.org, or it's available anywhere books are sold. You can go to Amazon or support your local bookstore, go and order it there. I send a weekly newsletter at NessLabs.com. You just go there, enter your email, and you'll hear from me every Thursday on a lot of the topics we discussed.

Thank you again for coming on the show. This has been wonderful. Thanks to readers for coming on the journey with us. I know you're leaving and ready to take on your own little tiny experiments, and, obviously, stay curious. This is the gateway to a better life. Thank you so much.

Important Links

• Ness Labs

• Tiny Experiments: How to Live Freely in a Goal-Obsessed World

• Tiny Experiments: How to Live Freely in a Goal-Obsessed World on Amazon

• How to Change Your Mind: What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence

• How We Learn: Why Brains Learn Better Than Any Machine . . . for Now

• Tao Te Ching

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